Interview with Evan Hafer
Evan Hafer is the founder and CEO of Black Rifle Coffee. He served for over twenty years in the U.S. Army as a Green Beret and in the Central Intelligence Agency.
Fahrenheit 197
Contents
Max Raskin: Where I want to start is with the natural first question to ask you: Do you drink tea?
Evan Hafer: I drink a little bit. I'll shift out of coffee at one or two o'clock, and then I'll move into some herbal teas.
MR: Do you drink kombucha?
EH: No. And if I do, it's because there's just a lack of other choices. I drink coffee and water, and then maybe less than 2% of everything that I put in my body is tea.
MR: How do you drink your water?
EH: I drink reverse osmosis filtrated water that I put in my refrigerator, and I chill it in glass jars. It drives my wife a little bit crazy because it's a bit of an OCD thing for me.
MR: Do you have anything else that's an OCD thing for you?
EH: Well, it's kind of a process. I think of things in very linear fashion, so I have to organize things in a very specific way.
MR: What's the first thing you put in your body in the morning?
EH: Probably 12 to 24 ounces of water straight away. And then I make coffee the same way every morning – around 5:30 is when I have my first cup of coffee.
MR: And how do you make it?
EH: Pour-over. I use a Chemex every morning and I have a Fellow grinder – one of their newer grinders that I really like – it’s the best grinder you can have.
MR: What kind of coffee do you drink?
EH: I drink our exclusive coffee club, which is our micro lots. I'm a consumer of the product, but it also gives me the opportunity every morning to quality control the coffee, as a consumer. My coffee club doesn't get here any earlier than anybody else's.
MR: How do you take your coffee?
EH: Black. I don't put anything in it.
I have the same method every morning. I heat up my water, which is also reverse osmosis water. A lot of coffee heads will put minerals back in – they'll pH balance their water, but I'll just reverse osmose the whole thing, and then I drink it the same way every morning. I'll heat up my Chemex to 197 degrees so the coffee is 197 degrees. I put in 30 grams of coffee.
MR: And then what do you drink it out of?
EH: Several years ago I designed a coffee mug, which I call the perfect coffee mug. It has about three quarters of an inch off the top. If you're putting in 480 grams of liquid coffee – 30 grams dry in a 1:16 ratio at 197 degrees yields 480 grams. That leaves about three quarters of an inch on the top.
It's also got a big drinking vessel and a very big sturdy handle with a thumb hold on the top of it, so you could put all four of your fingers in it. I like drinking coffee from mugs that you can defend your life with. It's a way I have to measure quality: Can I defend myself with this?
The Omnivore
MR: Do you take vitamins?
EH: No. Right now, I'm doing the carnivore diet. I'll do something for 30 or 45 days, just to see if it does anything physically or mentally.
MR: Is this a keto kind of diet?
EH: It's just meat for 30 days.
MR: Nothing but meat?
EH: Nothing but meat for 30 days. And I've been taking bone marrow and liver supplements.
MR: This is like keto on steroids.
EH: It's pretty wild. A lot of people have done it. I don't think that it would be anything that I'd want to do for past 30 to 45 days, but I'm just thoroughly interested in if you can get direct or identifiable results from just changing your diet.
Later in the year, I'll be a vegetarian for a month or 45 days. Typically, what I like is just whole meats and whole vegetables.
MR: What kind of meat do you like? What's your favorite kind of meat?
EH: In my freezer right now, I have black-tailed deer from Alaska that I shot with Steve Rinella. I was up there with the guys from MeatEater, one of the most American iconic hunters right now. I've got moose, elk, whitetail. But if I have my choice between all wild game, which it's always going to default wild game, it'll be moose. The second would be elk.
MR: What cut of moose meat?
EH: Tenderloin.
MR: How will you cook it?
EH: It's medium rare.
MR: In a cast iron skillet?
EH: In a cast iron skillet. I really like doing things on a Traeger, but I like to sear the steak and then put it in the oven.
MR: What kind of oil do you use?
EH: I use grass-fed butter, salt and pepper, and maybe a little bit of sage or something.
Heavy Squats and Other Life Hacks
MR: Are you a big life hack guy?
EH: Yes. I have an ice bath. I've got an IR sauna – I love it, but I can't really see a direct benefit.
The only thing that I see in my life that has a direct physical and psychological benefit is heavy squats two or three days a week. If I don't do those, I can directly see the difference between my strength, my stamina, and my attitude.
We have a gym here at Black Rifle – a full Sorinex, NFL-style gym with squat racks and punching bags.
MR: Do you exercise every day?
EH: I try to, at least five days a week.
MR: Do you run?
EH: I do. I'll run three to five miles at a time, three to five days a week, depending on where I am and what I have going on
MR: And you do an ice bath?
EH: Yeah, everybody does them. My kids do them. My kids are five and eight and they'll get in them and do them. They think it's hilarious and they love it.
MR: Do you do Wim Hof breathing?
EH: No. I subscribe to that app, though. I've watched a documentary on him.
MR: What kind of case do you have for your phone?
EH: This is called Kagwerks – it’s one of my buddies. I've known him forever.
MR: What's an app on your phone that you use that other people aren't going to know about that you just love?
EH: I use Clear a lot, which I really like because I'm a list-driven person.
MR: What's Clear?
EH: It's literally lists. You make lists and it color codes where you are in the lists
I actually do a lot of stuff analog. I like writing.
MR: Do you have a pen that you like using?
EH: I like uni-ball.
MR: I'll buy hundreds of their Vision pens [N.B. .7mm]
EH: Yes, that's the exact model that I use. I hate using anything else. I hate using ball point pens.
MR: What do you like writing on?
EH: So these two notebooks are just my most recent notebooks, but I think they're the Moleskin notebooks. I have two running notebooks at all times, one for personal and one for business.
MR: What kind of watch do you have?
EH: Garmin Fenix – it measures your heart rate and O2 levels and things like that. You can also track your sleep cycle.
MR: Do you wear it to sleep?
EH: I do.
MR: How much sleep do you get a night?
EH: I get about seven and a half hours, which is up because I used to only get five and a half. But I've been steadily increasing it over the last several years to try to get more.
For Whom the Dead Toll
MR: How much time do you spend on your phone each day?
EH: I work on my phone a lot, but recreationally I don't spend any time on my phone. Last time I checked it, I think I'm at four and a half hours a day.
MR: Where do you listen to your music?
EH: I listen to it on Spotify. Right now, I'm going through this new country music genre that's more Texas-based, like Paul Cauthen. “Cocaine and Country Dancing” is one of his songs. It's kind of country rock, but it's smaller venue. It feels very small and instrumental.
MR: What were your top three most played songs last year?
EH: Well, the Dead's always on there. When I work out, I listen to Tool.
MR: What songs?
EH: “Forty Six & 2” and “Opiate.”
MR: What's the first Dead song that comes to your mind right now?
EH: “Truckin’.”
MR: Do you have a favorite year?
EH: The earlier Dead when Pigpen was still part of the band.
MR: You’re a Pigpen fan?
EH: Yes, because he's really bluesy. But I'll listen to the Dead channel on satellite radio.
MR: What kind of car do you drive?
EH: I drive a Ford F-150.
MR: Did you do anything special to it?
EH: No. I had a Raptor for a while and it's just kind of stupid. It's fun, but I don't really drive it all that much the way that it needs to be driven, even though I could. I literally just ordered a hybrid F-150.
MR: Do you dream?
EH: Yes and no. I sleep with audiobooks.
MR: What are you listening to right now?
EH: I'm listening to the Gray Man Series. Have you ever heard of that?
MR: Is that about Albert Fish?
EH: No, he's a CIA assassin. I've never been into fiction, ever, outside of Hemingway.
MR: What's your favorite Hemingway?
EH: For Whom the Bell Tolls.
MR: That was John McCain's favorite.
After PTS
MR: Have you ever seen a therapist?
EH: A marriage counselor, but never a therapist. I don't necessarily believe in it.
MR: I'm sure a lot of veterans come to you with psychological stuff. What do you recommend? How do you help people?
EH: Well, number one, you have to surround yourself with people that understand your circumstance. When you go to a therapist, sometimes it's just to tell the therapist what you're going through because you feel like you can talk to somebody. And sometimes, that's just what you need. You need to be able to talk to somebody, work through your problems, and then they can obviously just listen because that's part of their whole thing – they're listening.
But there's a small percentage of veterans, especially GWOT [Global War on Terror] veterans, who actually experienced combat. It’s far less than about 10% of the total force that was deployed. Combat veterans, specifically the guys that have really conducted the art of warfare for extended periods, have a camaraderie. Combat really builds a profound amount of trust. And the physical and psychological nature of the experience because it's so acute – you have to be with other people that have experienced those things because if you don't, you have no release. We talk about PTS in this business openly all the time because we're 50%-plus veterans and it's run by a group of special operations veterans that have all seen combat, for the most part.
These conversations are open. It's a different type of ecosystem. What I tell people is one of the things that World War II veterans got right was the VFW. You could go to the VFW and you could drink some beers and smoke some cigarettes and talk to your buddies. It's not about war stories. It's just being able to share time with people that have this profound experience. You have to communicate and be socialized with other people that have gone through that experience. And if you've gone through a lot of trauma, being around other people that have been through trauma, it really helps. It does because people understand what you're going through.
MR: Did you ever struggle with it?
EH: Yes. I have a lot of what's called survivor's guilt. I had seven and a half years deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. I lost my two closest friends within six months, both to IEDs, both in Iraq. I never expected to live through my war experience. I always felt that I would probably be killed in Iraq. I didn't think about my life past Iraq. And so, for me, I got out of there relatively unscathed. I have all my fingers and toes.
And then I went to Afghanistan. In 2009, we signed the Status of Forces Agreement and the majority of the troops withdrew from Iraq. I went to Afghanistan after that. From 2009 to 2013, I was in Afghanistan. So I have both Iraq and Afghanistan, both from a special operations perspective and as a CIA guy. I didn't really expect to live past a certain age. And the guilt, I think, from a lot of us is felt every day and it's acute. It used to be worse. It goes down, I think, with the years. And then you have to intellectualize. For me, I think I have to intellectualize something and then I can start to emotionally deal with it.
MR: Has your business success and general life success compounded that feeling of guilt?
EH: It hasn't compounded the feeling. It's helped me because I have to build something for the community. It has to be well-represented for the guys that I know who aren't here to represent themselves. It's made me work much harder than I probably would have.
MR: What charity do you think is the best one that you recommend to help veterans?
EH: The Third Option is good if you want to donate to help CIA guys. If you think clandestine warfare is something that you want to support and you want to support the guys and the families that have been affected, Third Option does a great job. The Special Operations Warrior Foundation – they do a great job as far as supporting the special operations community.
MR: What about if someone doesn’t have a particular branch they want to support? You have one. Stump yours!
EH: The Black Rifle Coffee Fund. We pay the salaries of everybody. The coffee pays the salaries of everybody that works for the fund. 100% of the proceeds go back to veteran-related causes. It's run by Jay Fain, who's a single-leg amputee from Iraq, and Derick Carver, who's a single-leg amputee from Afghanistan.
MR: I don’t know why you didn’t hawk your own charity at first.
EH: Well, it sounds too pitchy. But I think we do a better job because 100% of the proceeds go back to veterans. What we're trying to do is directly affect men and women that have been physically altered by the war. That’s not an unseen condition – it’s a very seen condition. We directly go in and try to help people who have lost legs, arms, multiple appendages,
MR: How big is gallows humor in the community?
EH: It's huge. This is also another issue why veterans, especially combat veterans, have a hard time adapting to regular society. We have very dark humor and it's not understood by a huge percent of the population. That sense of humor can be misinterpreted as sociopathic or callous or lack of sensitivity, especially today's day and age.
MR: Who's your favorite comedian right now?
EH: Rogan.
MR: Do you listen to the podcast?
EH: I love listening to the show. I've been on it and Joe's a good friend of mine.
MR: Who’s your favorite interview that he's ever done?
EH: I like Krystal & Saagar. I think they're really interesting and their news outlet is really interesting.
MR: How do I compare to Rogan as an interviewer?
EH: Well, we're not smoking cigars and drinking whiskey.
MR: What's it like going on his show?
EH: It's super easy and it's super fun because he's a friend of mine, so it's just like having a conversation with your buddy for three hours while you drink whiskey and smoke cigars.
MR: What's your favorite whiskey?
EH: I don't drink a lot of whiskey, but if I do, it's High West. It's a distillery here in Park City that I like. And my buddy, he's got a distillery called Willie's Whiskey up in Ennis, Montana, but those are the two.
John Birch Hippie
MR: Do you smoke pot?
EH: I have. I'm not a regular user at all.
MR: Have you ever taken acid or mushrooms or anything?
EH: I've used psilocybin, for sure, because it's probably one of the most effective means in order to help with emotional connection. For people that have had acute trauma, the traditional talk therapy I just don't think works. I think you have to seek alternative forms of therapy and I think psilocybin – high-dose, short-increment psilocybin – helps a lot.
MR: Are you religious at all?
EH: No. My genetics are one thing – I've got a certain amount of Ashkenazi DNA, but only from my father's side. I'm very agnostic.
I've been to a lot of different places – I’ve lived in Jerusalem and I went to Rome and lived with a group of priests for about a month. It’s not hard to be spiritual going to very religious places and experiencing them, but I always come back to the fact that from my perspective, I'm just not that smart and I have no ability to comprehend whether or not it's fact or fiction. And I'm probably too much of a cynic or a skeptic.
MR: Do you believe in an afterlife?
EH: I do. I think that there's probably something that happens. It's just such a ridiculous conversation for me to have because I sound like an idiot when I talk about it. But I think reality is constructed and something that we've developed and we can comprehend, but I don't think that human beings necessarily have the ability to comprehend what's happening. And I don't know what happens; I just think that we're probably going to be recycled energy at one point.
MR: Do you think there's consciousness after you die?
EH: No. I think you have a different level of consciousness after you die that we can't necessarily comprehend or put to the English language.
MR: Do you think people are reunited with their families or anything like that?
EH: No, I don't.
MR: Do you believe in God?
EH: I believe in God, but not in the traditional sense . I think God is a universal articulation for a human being's perception of reality and its interpretation of what will happen. I believe in it, I just don't know what's going to happen.
MR: Do you floss?
EH: Yes.
MR: Every day?
EH: Every day.
MR: What kind of toothbrush do you have?
EH: Sonicare with coal toothpaste – Colgate activated charcoal toothpaste.
MR: Do you wear cologne?
EH: No. I never use cologne. I'm really sensitive to a lot of smells, so I fucking hate cologne. I don't like any of it.
MR: Really?
EH: I barely use any laundry detergent.
MR: Do you use deodorant?
EH: I do. I just use non-scented hippie dippy stuff.
MR: What about shampoo? Do you use Dr. Bronner’s or anything?
EH: Oh, yeah. That's what I use all the time.
MR: Peppermint!?
EH: Peppermint! And the other one I like to use is tea tree oil.
Dovid Crockett
MR: Would you describe yourself as a hippie?
EH: The things that I respect with that definition is freedom. I like being an individual. I like being able to be exactly who you are, unashamed, and the exercise of individuality and freedom.
MR: Have you always been like this or did something turn a switch in your head? Was there a book? Was there a person?
EH: Combat. Becoming a Green Beret, your individual effort defines who you are. It has nothing to do with your economic background or your skin color or anything else.
MR: Did you think about these things before that?
EH: Oh, yeah. My dad's a very hardcore conservative. He's probably what you'd define as more of a John Birch-type conservative.
MR: Where did he grow up?
EH: He grew up in Idaho.
MR: A Jew from Idaho?
EH: Yeah.
MR: How does that work?
EH: We're from Idaho. My grandfather was a sheep herder.
MR: How is there a Jew from Idaho?
EH: That's what everybody asks me. My grandfather was the last of 12 children. He migrated west when he was 13 and he landed in the mountains of Idaho, basically as a sheep herder and a logger.
MR: Were there any other thinkers that influenced you?
EH: I always respected and really admired the men in the military. I looked up to Bob Dole, H.W., Colin Powell. Some of these guys were just profoundly impactful in my life where they weren't involved, but you could read about them.
And then I would read a lot about special operations and individuals in special operations and higher-ranking officers, people that you probably never heard of. Dick Meadows was one of them. He was one of the most iconic special forces soldiers in American history.
MR: And this was before you went into the military?
EH: Yes.
EH: Later in life, I think Hemingway was a big impact on my life. Mark Twight, who's probably one of the world’s most elite ice climbers. I read his Kiss or Kill: Confessions of a Serial Climber very early on and I carried that around. When I was in Iraq I had Walden in a cargo pocket. Some people will debate whether or not Thoreau was chased out of town because he was some weirdo or went to live in the woods deliberately.
MR: What's your favorite war novel and movie?
EH: War movie is easy: Apocalypse Now. The uncut, long version truly captures the chaos and the insanity of war. I think Helmet for My Pillow is probably the best war memoir. It's a Marine Corps memoir in World War II when they were moving through the South Pacific. That and With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa.
MR: What's your favorite gun right now?
EH: My favorite gun right now is the SIG P365. I carry that every day. It's in my backpack over here.
MR: What's your favorite rifle?
EH: Right now my favorite rifle that I'm shooting is a Noveske with a 300 Blackout subsonic round that’s suppressed.
MR: And what's your favorite shotgun?
EH: Benelli, I think, makes the best shotgun on the planet. I love shooting sporting clays. I've got a range at my place in Texas.
Never Surrender
MR: What's your Chess.com ranking?
EH: I have no idea because I don't play on it. I took probably three years off. And my daughters just got to the point where they can play. Now, I'm turning it back on. I have chess boards all throughout my office. And my ex-wife was a big chess player, too – we had a constant game that was always in the center of the house.
We don't have TVs. I just got a TV for the first time in my adult life three years ago because I have kids.
MR: What's your favorite TV show right now?
EH: Fargo, right now. It's on Amazon.com. It's a series. It's fucking incredible. I think [It’s] Always Sunny [in Philadelphia] is always good.
MR: Do you let your daughters win at chess?
EH: When we first started I would because I thought that they would gain confidence, but then I shifted. So now, they never get to win, but it hasn't taken the fun out of it for them.
MR: They're going to be beating you very soon.
EH: They are. And so I'm going to have to actually start training and reading more on strategy and getting into it.
Their chess instructor said, “Never let your daughter win – always play to win because when she beats you, it will be for real and it will be 1,000 times better for her.”