Interview with Congressman Leonard Lance
Leonard Lance is an attorney who served as the U.S. representative for New Jersey's 7th congressional district.
American History
Contents
Max Raskin: We both share a love of history — do you have any history books that you've come back to over and over again or do you like reading new things?
Leonard Lance: I like reading new books about American history, but that does not mean that I do not refer to books I've read previously. For example, I refer to Conrad Black's wonderful biography of Franklin Roosevelt continually.
MR: When you write, do you mark up your books?
LL: I do. For example, Conrad Black says that the most important election for Franklin Roosevelt was the election he won for governor of New York in 1928 very narrowly, because if he had not won that election, he would not have been poised to be the leading candidate for president in 1932. And Al Smith probably would have been renominated in 1932.
MR: If you could meet any of these characters in American history, who would it be?
LL: I would say most people give the answer I'm going to give, and that's Abraham Lincoln. He is the central figure in American history.
MR: What are your favorite books about the American Civil War?
LL: I like Doris Kearns Goodwin's book, Team of Rivals. I prefer popular historians as opposed to dry academic historians. And I think popular historians do a terrific job in informing the public in general about our history.
MR: Were you a fan of the Ken Burns’ Civil War documentary?
LL: Yes. And I'm a fan of several of his other documentaries, for example, on baseball. In the part of New Jersey where I live, you're either a Yankees fan or a Mets fan, then in Southern New Jersey, a Phillies fan, but I come from a Yankees household.
MR: You have a great memory for American political history — do you know baseball history very well?
LL: No. I have a twin brother who is the expert in the family on baseball, and I defer to him. He's an identical twin; he's nine minutes older — and we divided the world when we were children, and I defer to his expertise on matters related to sports, particularly baseball.
Morning Routine
MR: I didn't know you had a twin brother. At what point do you stop dressing alike?
LL: I think that after the age of five or six, you develop your own personality and our parents were determined that each of us would have his own personality, and I think that that was a good judgment on their part.
MR: Nature or nurture?
LL: I think nature has a lot to do with who we are. That doesn't mean that nurture is not important, but I think nature is very important.
MR: Does he have an interest in law and politics as well?
LL: He is an attorney. We're both attorneys. But he's the person who really practices law; he's a solo practitioner in the little town of Clinton in Hunterdon County, New Jersey, as was our father before us. It's what I would describe as an office practice. He doesn't really go to court. He writes wills, does real estate, and serves the local population.
MR: Before I jump into some New Jersey questions — which authors writing today will you scramble to read when they publish?
LL: I read whatever David Brooks writes in The New York Times. I think he is a moderate conservative, and I always read his columns. I also read those more on the left: Susan Glasser and Ruth Marcus in the New Yorker.
MR: Are you on Twitter?
LL: I am not. I'm not on any of those sites.
MR: So when you're first up in the morning, what does your media consumption look like?
LL: I go to the gate and get the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. I prefer the Journal's editorial page, but I read both. Then I go on the website RealClearPolitics, which I think is an excellent summary of articles from all over the country updated nightly, so in the morning I'm able to go through that.
MR: Do you have a set breakfast that you eat every morning?
LL: I try to have orange juice, cold cereal with fruit, and decaffeinated coffee. I drink only decaffeinated coffee all day.
MR: Why not?
LL: I think it's better for me physically to stick with decaf.
MR: What cereal?
LL: Total.
MR: Is that a ritual?
LL: During the week. Now, on Sunday morning my wife cooks eggs and it's a little more elaborate. We like poached eggs.
MR: I'm going to change your life — our family just learned to make microwaved poached eggs.
LL: I've never experienced microwaved poached eggs.
MR: If you need to do it early in the morning — I love poached eggs but they're a hassle — I'll send you the recipe. It's perfect.
LL: Thank you.
MR: Do you belong to any church?
LL: Yes. The Lances are historically Protestant, but my late mother was Roman Catholic. Her mother was, too. So my brother and I are Roman Catholic, although three-quarters of our ancestry is Protestant. We were raised to be very tolerant of all religions because my parents' marriage was what in those days was called a mixed marriage, a Protestant and a Catholic. People don't worry about those matters today, but 75 years ago it was more significant.
MR: Are you interested in papal history?
LL: I don't know very much about it. I have friends who do, but I followed to a modest extent the selection of the new pope. I think he took the name Leo to honor Leo XIII, the pope at the beginning of the 20th century, who famously wrote about ensuring workers were treated fairly. Also, I was flabbergasted that an American was chosen as pope. I had said to someone 10 minutes before it was announced that it couldn't possibly be an American, so I was dead wrong.
MR: I think you’re one of the best political forecasters I know. Are you familiar with betting markets where you can bet on political candidates?
LL: I am.
MR: What’s a political call you are most proud of getting right and what’s something you got totally wrong?
LL: In high school in 1968, I predicted that Richard Nixon would defeat Hubert Humphrey, even when it got very close at the end of the race.
Many cycles later, I predicted privately that Hillary Clinton would defeat Donald Trump in 2016. She didn’t, of course, but she did win the popular vote by almost three million.
A Family Tree in the Garden State
MR: You have a long family history in New Jersey. Can you talk a little about?
LL: On my paternal grandmother's side, she was born Florence Smith. Her father and grandfather were farmers. In this part of New Jersey, that family was involved in county matters in Hunterdon County, where we live. I think one of her ancestors was a freeholder — a county commissioner. On the Lance side, I had a great-uncle in the state legislature.
My late father was in both houses of our state legislature and became president of our state senate, so he was very much involved in political life. He was one of the framers of our modern state constitution, enacted in 1947. I think we have a strong state constitution. Our old constitution of 1844 was not good: the governor could not succeed himself, had a three-year term, and could be overridden by a simple legislative majority. All of that changed in 1947, likely reflecting a post-World War II push to modernize.
MR: What political lessons did you learn from your father?
LL: If he had an overarching view of public policy, it was to be fiscally responsible.
I would say both political parties today, nationally, are fiscally irresponsible. Both parties. That is not the tradition in which I was raised. I believe in fiscal responsibility because these terrible deficits year in and year out are to the detriment of the next generation, and at some point, we're going to have to pay the piper.
MR: What about retail politics? Any lessons — like kissing babies? What did you learn from him on that front?
LL: I don't think we're, by nature, baby-kissers, but he taught me to listen to constituents and be interested in their views. He believed in civility and was not overly partisan. I hope I am not overly partisan. I am a partisan — a proud Republican — but I don't think I have the reputation of being a nasty partisan.
MR: You have a reputation for being civil and reasonable — and, of course, I say this as a bad thing. You mentioned your family were not baby kissers. Do you find it hard being a politician in the new world of TikTok, Instagram, and personal branding? How do you navigate that?
LL: I come from an era before that, and I don't think you have to comment on every matter immediately. It's more important to reflect and analyze. An instant opinion is often not in the best interest of public policy.
MR: That's quaint. Very quaint. For people who have never been to Jersey, a couple of questions. What’s New Jersey comfort food for you?
LL: In the summer New Jersey has wonderful homegrown corn and tomatoes — among the best anywhere in the world.
MR: Do you farm?
LL: We do not farm, but our house was originally a farmhouse. The oldest section was built in 1780. In fact, I'm now seated in the dining room built in 1780, and the newer section was built in 1840.
Culture
MR: Do you enjoy listening to music?
LL: I do. I'm not very knowledgeable, but I like classical music and show tunes — Broadway show tunes.
MR: What are your favorites?
LL: Rodgers & Hammerstein and Stephen Sondheim. I'm not knowledgeable about rock. I respect those who are; it's just not something I know much about.
MR: What's your relationship with New York City?
LL: I consider it our big city, and I'm pleased we live near it. My wife worked for many years in New York. She first worked for Manufacturers Hanover Trust, which merged into Chemical; then Chemical was bought by Chase; then Chase bought JP Morgan. She worked through all those iterations and commuted from out here.
When I read art and theater reviews in the New York Times, that doesn't mean I will go into town, but in the back of my mind there's the thought, "I have the opportunity to do that," because New York is our big city. For example, we haven't done it yet, but we want to visit the newly renovated Frick, and friends have already visited; it's on our list.
MR: Where are your favorite places in the city?
LL: I enjoy the major museums — The Met, the Museum of Modern Art.
MR: Is there a piece at The Met that stands out to you?
LL: My wife is very interested in 18th-century furniture, so we usually go there first.
MR: Do you have any hobbies?
LL: Reading American history. Also, our incredibly devilish 94-pound yellow lab occupies a significant portion of our life. Are my wife, Heidi, and I his mistress and master? I'd say we're his servants.
MR: What is it about American political history that you love so much?
LL: I believe this is the greatest country that has ever existed. I believe in American exceptionalism. President Obama once said America is an exceptional country. I think America is the exceptional country, and I believe we're the leader in the world; I want us to continue to be. I consider myself extremely lucky to have been born here. We have challenges, but I want us to remain the exemplar across the globe for values I consider essential.
1952
MR: There have been times that we’ve spoken about the election of 1952 for more than an hour together. That’s probably not healthy for us.
LL: Dwight Eisenhower versus Adlai Stevenson. Richard Nixon is the Republican vice-presidential nominee; John Sparkman of Alabama is the Democratic vice-presidential nominee.
MR: Bob Taft!
LL: Yes, Robert Taft — and we in New Jersey were for Dwight Eisenhower over Taft.
MR: Can you tell the story of the Supreme Court and Eisenhower’s promise?
LL: This is how it worked: At the convention, Earl Warren wanted to be the compromise candidate if Eisenhower and Taft deadlocked. That did not happen. In effect, Warren was promised the first seat on the Supreme Court that opened up, but not necessarily the chief justiceship. The first justice to die was Chief Justice Fred Vinson. Warren said, "Now I want to be made chief justice," and it was not initially clear that Eisenhower would do that — but he did.
Later in the Eisenhower presidency, around his 1956 reelection, another vacancy arose. In those days there was what was known as the "Catholic seat," and William Brennan was appointed. One reason was not only that he was Roman Catholic; he had an identifiably Roman Catholic last name — Brennan, Irish. If his name had not been identifiably Irish, I'm not sure he would have been appointed.
MR: Did your father know him?
LL: Yes. They had both gone to Harvard Law School in the same era. Brennan served in our state judiciary and was on our state supreme court. My father knew him to some extent.
MR: Did you ever meet him?
LL: No. Before my time.
MR: Why do you know that story about Eisenhower?
LL: From having sat and listened to conversations like this at our dinner table when I was a child.
MR: I happen to love these stories — a combination of policy, politics, and personalities? Very few people love it as much as you.
LL: Public policy is based on intellectual matters, personalities, and politics — an amalgam. I suspect it was the same in Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and at the height of the British Empire, and it's true of the United States today.
MR: As far as I know, you've never written a book about American history.
LL: I have not.
MR: Why not?
LL: I don't think I'm expert enough. I enjoy reading about it, but I don't think I have the expertise to write it.
MR: It's a little like Yeats, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." I guarantee you know more about American history than people now writing about it.
LL: Thank you. But I'll leave that to others.
MR: If you were to sit down and do research on any topic or period and really write a book, what would you dive into?
LL: America's modern height began in 1945. We were the preeminent power without a doubt, and we didn't want to conquer foreign territory — unusual for a preeminent power. There was a vast increase in the middle class from 1945 until some time in the 1980s. I'd analyze that — and the fact that the middle class has not done as well since the latter 20th century to the present. That informs our politics today.
MR: Of all the politicians you've personally met was there anyone where you felt like you were in the presence of something different?
LL: As children my brother and I had the opportunity on several occasions to meet Dwight Eisenhower.
MR: Wow.
LL: From a child's perspective, I didn't know everything about Eisenhower. But now, knowing a good deal more, I think he's the most impressive person I've met.
MR: What was it like meeting him?
LL: I knew even as a child I was in the presence of greatness. He was ramrod straight, had a wonderful smile, and was beloved by the American people. He won overwhelmingly. He would've won a third time in 1960 if the Constitution had permitted it. The Constitution was changed after World War II by Republicans, by people on my side, to kick Franklin Roosevelt in the shins after he'd died. The first person it affected was the incredibly popular Dwight Eisenhower.
MR: We're always hoisted by our own petard.
LL: Often we are.
A New Jerseyan on the Ethics Committee
MR: If you could meet any contemporary politician you haven't met — one Republican and one Democrat — who would they be?
LL: On the Republican side, the vice president. I don't know him, but he is arguably our leading candidate for the 2028 presidential nomination. He is very young — I think only perhaps John Breckinridge and Richard Nixon were slightly younger.
On the Democratic side, I'd like to meet a potential nominee — perhaps Josh Shapiro or Gavin Newsom. I think the Democrats will have a wide field in 2028; their names come to mind, though there will be others.
MR: Let's end with Washington and being a congressman. When you're first elected, what is the day after like? Who tells you what to do next?
LL: When you are elected, you have to establish an office. I wanted a chief of staff with Washington experience—
MR: I guess what I mean is, after you are elected, who calls you and tells you that you need to hire a chief of staff or asks who it is?
LL: I'm not sure anyone calls. It's just something you know you have to do. I wanted a chief of staff with Washington experience because I had none. I had never been in Washington except for a day or two, first on a senior class trip in high school. My experience was at the state level in Trenton.
At a more fundamental level, you try to get on an important committee. I was lucky in my first term to get on Financial Services. In the second term, I transferred at my request to Energy and Commerce. Energy and Commerce and Ways and Means are the two most important committees in the House — you can't be on both, and most members are on neither. It was important for my district to get on Energy and Commerce, which has the broadest jurisdiction — roughly 40% of all House legislation comes from it. Later, I also served on the Ethics Committee. I'm the only New Jerseyan to have served on an ethics committee on Capitol Hill in the last 35 years.
MR: There's obviously reason for this.
LL: It says nothing particularly good about New Jersey — and, immodestly, perhaps something not so bad about me. Paul Ryan, my friend, asked me to go on the Ethics Committee. That did not preclude continuing on Commerce, but there's a long line for Energy and Commerce or Ways and Means. There's no line for Ethics. There are five Republicans and five Democrats; it's the only completely bipartisan House committee and is sometimes viewed as penance or purgatory. But I did serve on Ethics.
Master of the House
MR: What’s your favorite book on the Congress?
LL: Robert Caro's books about Lyndon Johnson — Master of the Senate, in particular.
MR: If you could have met any of the Speakers of the House, who would it be?
LL: I'd have liked to meet Henry Clay and Sam Rayburn. I was honored to serve with John Boehner and Paul Ryan — very able speakers. I always had, I thought, a decent, somewhat distant but cordial relationship with Nancy Pelosi. These are major figures of the current age.
MR: Do people knock you for being from New Jersey? Is there some reputation that we have being from New Jersey.
LL: Some, but not very many.
MR: Were you a congressman during The Sopranos?
LL: No one mentioned The Sopranos to me.
MR: That's because they knew what would happen to them if they did…
LL: I suspect that's true.
MR: What are you reading right now?
LL: I'm rereading Team of Rivals because I read a comment that perhaps the Trump cabinet is a team of rivals.
MR: Nixon had that too. Bill Safire and Pat Buchanan and Henry Kissinger all in a room together?
LL: I'm also reading a relatively new biography of Mrs. Nixon that’s very interesting called The Mysterious Mrs. Nixon. And I just read Red Scare about the McCarthy era. That’s a very interesting book.
MR: Do you enjoy podcasts?
LL: I don't listen frequently, but I do on occasion. I should become more acquainted with them.
MR: Radio used to be a big medium. Was it for you?
LL: I'm a little too young. I'm of the television age — although we didn't have a television until my brother and I were 10. We were the only family without one, deliberately. When we first went to kindergarten, we did not know what other children knew — and perhaps we knew things they did not.
MR: Do you watch TV now?
LL: On occasion, but we watch CNN or Fox or MSNBC. We don't watch commercial television.
MR: Not even The Sopranos or The West Wing?
LL: We watched The West Wing in the 1990s. I thought it was, to some extent The Left Wing.
MR: What’s the deal with the badge you get as a congressman?
LL: You get an insignia permitting free access to the Capitol Hill campus — no metal detectors and you get into committee rooms with ease. That's the purpose of the badges. Although I was informed with others that you probably shouldn’t wear it off campus, for example when you’re downtown.
MR: You give a great piece of practical advice when young people ask you about running for office. What do you say to them?
LL: Establish your residency. You simply can’t say, "I'd like to be a member of Congress," and choose a place where you have only peripheral knowledge. You should be part of the community you hope to serve. In the House, your title is representative; you should represent the three-quarters of a million people you serve. I don't favor parachuting into an area hoping to be elected.
SALT and Vinegar
MR: What makes you Jersey?
LL: My family has lived here a very long time.
MR: But personality-wise and dispositionally, what makes you a New Jerseyan?
LL: By upbringing and tradition, I'm an East Coast person. Part of that is that New York is our major city and the newspapers I read are published there. I've had the opportunity to be in other parts of the country. My wife and I went to law school at Vanderbilt, in Nashville — a different part of the country. It was a wonderful experience, not only educationally but in understanding the country as a whole because our education is not exclusively in your home region. Most people, not all, are educated in their home region. I had the experience of being educated elsewhere.
MR: Other than law, what did you learn from being in Nashville?
LL: That a significant part of the country is neither East Coast nor West Coast. It's a vast country with slightly different traditions. It was a wonderful experience — not only in the law, but in appreciating the breadth and depth of the country.
MR: If you could have served in Congress in any time period in American history, when would it have been?
LL: The present. You should do your best where you are in life. Right now we should move the country forward to the greatest extent possible.
MR: One last question: as a Republican from a blue state — during the SALT cap debate on the 2017 tax bill — you wanted to keep the SALT deduction and remove the cap. When you're out of step with your own party on a significant issue, how do you personally deal with it? Did people try to jawbone you?
LL: This concerns the 2017 tax bill, which became law. 13 of us on the Republican side did not vote for it. On the East Coast and in California, Republicans opposed it because it significantly reduced the deductibility of state and local taxes to $10,000.
When you're in Congress, you have a responsibility to represent your constituents' views — especially when you agree with them, as I did and do. Since the advent of the federal income tax under Woodrow Wilson, and even briefly during Lincoln, there was deductibility. That was important. Leadership knew where I stood. I was asked to go into Steve Scalise's office on several occasions. Expert Ways and Means staff explained why the tax bill was good in total. I responded it might be good in total — though I had concerns — but it certainly was not good on SALT.
MR: Do you think Lyndon Johnson could've gotten you to bend?
LL: I do not believe so — even Lyndon Johnson. This was the view of colleagues from New York, New Jersey, and California. Several of us didn't vote for the bill. It is an important issue, particularly in a state like New Jersey, where property taxes are so high. We have the highest property taxes in the nation.
MR: Any funny examples of personal lobbying?
LL: No, but when the bill passed the House — before it became law — I bumped into Virginia Foxx, a very distinguished, senior member from North Carolina. She said, "Leonard, I hope to see you on the bus as we go down to the White House," for a press conference on the South Steps. I had to say, "I've not been invited, Virginia, because I didn't vote for the bill." It was kind of her — I think she wanted to see me on one of the buses going the two-and-a-half miles down Pennsylvania Avenue — but my invitation was lost in the mail.